Forum du petit sténographe

tom_in_co · Inscrit le: 24 Juin 2006 Messages: 16 Localisation: USA

I assume that this text is in Francais? Wink

May I assume that it adapts the Deploye alphabet to the sounds of Anglais? And does anyone know if this book represents the original Duploye system of connected voyelles and consonnes, or is it the version known as "metagrafie"?

Merci beaucoup,

Tom

Duployean · Inscrit le: 21 Mai 2006 Messages: 137

Yes Tom,

The book is based on the abbreviated version of Duployé's original system called "métagraphie."

It's aimed at French stenographers who want to take English as well without having to learn new signs or new rules.
I don't really advise it to you lest you want to learn métagraphie as well.

Sloan's adaptation is much more suited. It departs from the original system of the Duployé brothers in many ways. However, it is extremely fast and easy to learn.

Cheers.

tom_in_co · Inscrit le: 24 Juin 2006 Messages: 16 Localisation: USA

Duployean,

Merci beaucoup! Smile

I've looked at Sloan-Duployan and I think it uses the shaded lines like Pitman and unlike Duploye's original light line method, which I think is much superior. Smile

I found a copy of two books by Perrault on his version of Duploye's system, adapted for English, which I think that I will use instead. I really appreciate your insight though!

Any guesses or estimates on how fast a dictation one could take with Duployean or Perrault-Duployean (assuming they're approximately equal)?

Does metagraphie abbreviate and drop the vowels unlike the parent system?

Again, many, many thanks for your post!

Cheers,

Tom

Duployean · Inscrit le: 21 Mai 2006 Messages: 137

Hi Tom,

I'm glad you found those little gems. You're lucky as they are very rare, at least on this side of the Atlantic.

Perrault's version was much faster than the original system, whether it be in French or English, as it had a superior degree or reporting style which enabled the stenographers to take dictation at 200 wpm.

Sloan's adaptation is even faster. Yes, it uses shading to indicate R and the vowel positions are different from the ones we use in French. However I've made my own rules and been using the system for nearly forty years now, to such extent that I have difficulties going back to métagraphie now.

I'll try to post a scan showing the alphabet of Sloan's adaptation. It has new signs for complex consonants - by the way, Perrault had such new signs as they made things much faster and easier.
Consonant clusters such as SP / ST / SL / SM / SN / SK / KW / WR were attributed new signs in Sloan and Perrault.

Tell us when you receive the books or leaflets.

Strange nobody here has greeted you yet. They must be shy.

Fanchon · Posté le: Lun 26 Juin 2006 10:14 am Sujet du message:

Hello Tom, and welcome to our big friendly family of shorthand lovers. Very Happy

No, Duployean, it's not shyness that kept me quiet, I just didn't want to intrude and, moreover, I had nothing interesting to say on the subject. Embarassed

Its nice to see that we don't only mix shorthand methods here, but also languages.

Good day to everyone.
Fanchon.

tom_in_co · Inscrit le: 24 Juin 2006 Messages: 16 Localisation: USA

Hello Duployean & Fanchon,

Many thanks for the kind reply, greeting & information on M. Perrault!

After looking at the comparison of S-D and Perrault's adaptation (via Sam's timely pointer to another thread) it was clear to me that Perrault really had a great understanding of what makes a great shorthand system. Smile

I'm very please to learn that 200 wpm is possible with the P-D system... I would love to see any scans you'd care to provide. Smile

Thanks again for all the help you've provided!

Cheers,

Tom

tom_in_co · Inscrit le: 24 Juin 2006 Messages: 16 Localisation: USA

Duployean,

I forgot to mention in my last post that I would be very interested in any insights you could provide on abbreivation in Duployean shorthand. I am impressed that you have 40 years experience in writing shorthand- forgive me if I bother you incessantly with questions! Smile

I've been reading the "Premiere Partie" of "Stenographie Integrale" (which was posted on the Swiss Duployean site)- my French is quite bad, as you know, my daughter who is much better has been helping, but the terms of stenography are outside of her range of experience... I was wondering if you could explain to me how vowels are handled in Duployean?

It appears to me that the vowels are all based on the semi-circle and that they can rotate to facilitate connection between the consonants (which appear to be fixed and don't move). How do you distinguish between an "e" or an "i" if they've been rotated to connect two consonants? Is it familiarity or are there rules about connections?

Thanks in advance!

Cheers,

Tom

Duployean · Inscrit le: 21 Mai 2006 Messages: 137

Ok Tom,

Here comes the tricky part for me.
Yes, you got it right. Consonant signs have a fixed position and dimension, whereas vowel signs are mobile. The idea is to avoid angles at all costs, whenever possible, and also to distinguish between words that have the same consonantal structure.

Why, you have to keep in mind that it is essential for French speakers to distinguish verb endings, so final vowels are represented with the clearest distinction possible, that's why the sounds [i] and [e] have to be distinguished at the end of outlines in French. The same applies to the three nasal vowels [actually there are four of them, but speakers in the North do not make any difference between IN and UN - booo! ]

- The small circle represents the sounds [a] and OI [wa]
- The large circle represents the sounds [o] and OU [u]. The latter being distinguished only at the end of words and in isolated position with a small tick inside (the same as the I in Gregg).

Those circles are written anti-clockwise, thus above advancing consonant signs, and inside curved signs. Outside angles.

- The small hook represents the sounds [i] and [e] -open and closed.
Initially, no distinction is to be made.
In middle and final position, [i] and [e] must be distinguished. As a rule, the [i] hook is written anti-clockwise and the [e] sound is written clockwise without angles.

- The small quadrants represents the nasal sounds.

tom_in_co · Inscrit le: 24 Juin 2006 Messages: 16 Localisation: USA

Duployean,

As always, many thanks for your extraordinarily clear explanation! Smile

I am now more interested in ever in seeing Perrault's version for English. I will be quite interested in seeing how he deals with the "th", "ch", "sh" "st" dipthongs and "ing" endings... if he does.

BTW, I noticed your other post about the online stenography course that I believe you signed up for- what did you think about it? It seemed more angular than Duployean... less attractive, though your comments certainly indicated that it was efficient. Was it a variant of Aime Paris?

Thanks again for your continuing help & patience!

Cheers,

Tom

Duployean · Inscrit le: 21 Mai 2006 Messages: 137

Well, thanks for your words of appraisal. I don't think I'll qualify for a teaching position anyway.

The document in line is published by the National Library (Bibliothèque Nationale). It's an old French shorthand method dating from 1850 I gather, copied from Aimé Paris' system. It's not as good as the original as it is based on straight lines and angles. I think the author wanted to make the best use of the dip pen.

TH is represented by T with a tick or a dot above. You can get away with it when you're fluent with the system. Many American speakers pronounce De or Da for the definite article The, so it doesn't make any change.

SH is the same as French Ch

ST / SK / SP / SM / SN are big quadrant signs. W and KW and WR are also special signs.

tom_in_co · Inscrit le: 24 Juin 2006 Messages: 16 Localisation: USA

Duployean,

Interesting! I just got confirmation that my books have shipped from

Montreal... can't wait. Smile

I have been trying to locate Perrault's "Superior Course of Stenography" (which I think you alluded to earlier- it allows court reporting speeds of 200+ wpm)- regretably the book is harder to find than an honest politician! :/

What would be your guess of a reasonable rate of speed for Perrault's Elementary method? 100 wpm? 150 perhaps?

Thanks for the help!

Cheers,

Tom

Duployean · Inscrit le: 21 Mai 2006 Messages: 137

Potential speed for elementary level is 90 - 100 wpm for French.

Eighteen syllables in French give 10 theoretical words.
Fourteen syllables in English give the same number of theoretical words. So English is faster and the speeds given for English are higher.

However, dictation and speed training starts with the superior course, which is equivalent to Métagraphie here.

I just would like to stress the fact that speed doesn't really depend on the system you practise. It is commensurate with the efforts you make to practise it. Regularity is the key to success.

tom_in_co · Inscrit le: 24 Juin 2006 Messages: 16 Localisation: USA

Duployean,

Thank you! Your point about practice is well taken. Smile

Still, it's more pleasureable to write with a system that is well designed for the purpose than trying to force a lesser system to perform. :/

Cheers,

Tom